What say you Oppo, help me decide on a new daily driver

"offroadkarter" (04RauderDTR) 08/20/2013 at 00:30 • Filed to: ford focus ST, volvo S60R

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Lets see if I can make this oppo thingy do stuff....

Next year I'd like to pick up a new daily driver and I am torn between two choices which aren't even in the same class. I was wondering if anyone on oppo could help me with a decision, or tell me that I'm nuts... That works to.

I have a few requirements for a new daily that has helped me narrow down my endless search.

I don't want something thats beige (both the color and the excitement level)

Has to be able to move out of its own way

Really would prefer a manual

Option 1: Ford Focus ST

While I am not normally a small car guy, I have driven the regular focus and fit really well. I also found it to drive nice and thought the interior was good for a car in its class. I think ford did an excellent job with the new focus over what was sold in the US in prior years. I have also read a lot of great reviews for the ST and I generally like how it looks in and out which is why I'm interested.

Pros

Good gas mileage (23 city / 32 highway EPA)

252hp / 270tq

0-60 in 5.9 1/4 mile in 14.6 is very respectable

Very well equipped for such a small car

Warranty!

Cons

FWD - owning two RWD V8 vehicles, this is not a world I've dabbled with to much

Compact - It is still a small car, and being that I'm 6ft 5in I was never a small car person.

Price - its rather expensive for what is really still a focus. Only time will tell how well it holds its resale value

Option 2: Volvo S60R

Remember when I said not even in the same class? Yeah I kind of have a taste for obscure under the radar performance cars. For those of you who don't know much about the S60R (and the V70R Wagon), its a turbocharged 2.5L inline 5 with a haldex AWD system and fully electronic suspension that lets you pick between 3 ride settings (comfort, sport, and advanced ). Jeremy Clarkson also said it felt like driving a big woolly bison. I had the pleasure of driving one of these (a 2004 which is the first and worst year, I'd be looking in the 05-07 range) with the manual trans and I thought it drove excellent. The clutch, which could be called an on/off switch took some getting used to, but between the turbo noise, the fantastic seats, and listening to that signature 5cyl engine rev up as I banged through the gears, I was absolutely loving this car.

It also has a nice interior (I'll be first to admit the center stack is a little bland) with fantastic seats and an absolutely beautiful gauge cluster.

(boost gauge not standard)

Pros

Very comfortable and well equipped interior (Look at those !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

300hp / 300tq turbo 2.5 I5

0-60 5.5sec 1/4 mile 14 flat ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! )

AWD - better in crap weather

Has a more mature, grown up image than the ST (which adds to the sleeper effect IMO)

Full size car

Cons

15city / 22 highway - Willing to bet this car would get better MPG than my supercharged 04 marauder, but both are far worse than the ST

R's are generally problematic and very expensive to maintain. If the haldex AWD angle gear goes out, prepare to cry

Hard to find - I can take a 10min drive to the ford dealer and look at 6 ST's on the lot now, but finding a clean 6M R around me is proving to be tough, even worse when I try to find one in sonic blue

So what say you, people of oppositelock, what should I lean towards as a new daily driver?

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:33

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I'd say get a used ST with medium or high miles (to keep the cost down) if you can find one just because maintenance would be just awful on the Volvo.

BJohnson11 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:34

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You daily a supercharged Marauder and you don't want to continue doing so?

You're nuts.

But give us some more details on what you're looking to get out of the car and your restrictions. Budget, uses, needs, 2 door or 4 door or wagon or truck, etc. It'll be easier to go from there.

roflcopter > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:34

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It sounds like you have plenty of 'fun' cars and although I am not a fan of Ford and just picked up a Volvo, I'm going to vote for the ST.

Gas mileage has been my main factor in picking my next DD(the Volvo) and space is still good enough to get friends around along with some crap in the back in the ST.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:36

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Take the Volvo and give me your Marauder. Pretty fair I'd say.

roflcopter > roflcopter 08/20/2013 at 00:36

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Not to mention the whole new car thing with the ST, it's nice to have something that you don't have to worry about financially or time-wise. Nothing beats reliability when it comes to a daily.

offroadkarter > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/20/2013 at 00:40

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Oh no, I'll die with this car (or in this car, thats always a possibility)

offroadkarter > roflcopter 08/20/2013 at 00:42

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this is why I like the idea of a new car. Warranty covers any problems, and I don't have to worry about what (some dick of a) previous owner, or owners did. This is especially true when it comes to buying a performance car.

offroadkarter > BJohnson11 08/20/2013 at 00:48

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The only reason I don't want to keep DDing my car is for 3 reasons

I've DD'd this car since 2009 and its time to mix it up

I want to repaint the car in 2-3 years and drop in a new forged motor, MAYBE backed by a TR-6060 6spd

I want to keep this car around for a long time and really keep it for road trips and cruising. I've had this car in virginia, maryland, delaware, new jersey (where I am), pennsylvania, ohio, new york, conneticut and rhode island. I wouldn't hesitate to get in it right now and drive to california and back

I already have "truck" covered, my other vehicle is a 1996 bronco eddie bauer with a 351 windsor, 4" lift and 35" BFG A/T KO's. That really takes care of the nasty snow and weather.

Basically I'm just looking for an A to B car to drive every day. A four door would be better just for the added interior volume. I would say a budget is around 15-20 grand for something used but if I go with the ST I'll obviously have a car loan as I know its past that range.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:52

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But you could die in a Volvo instead. I mean, so many people have already died with or in their Mercuries... So played out.

offroadkarter > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 00:52

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I'd really have to weigh in the cost of a new vs lower mile ST and see how much they depreciate over a year or two. If a two year old ST is only say, 3-4000 cheaper than a brand new ST equipped the same way, I'd rather have the new one and not worry about its past.

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:52

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Golf R? I'm partial to ze Germans though so YMMV.
Basically you're options are:
Something German/luxury
A WRX
A sports car
A turbo grocery getter

Of those, I'd pick a BMW or an Audi, but if you're looking sleeper, the Acuras are where it's at. Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.
I don't need to explain a WRX
Along the sports cars, I'm partial to Camaros, but you can pick your poison depending on your loyalties on that area. The Scion is a car that I don't really covet, despite its fame.

Milky > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:53

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But if you save say 13k buying the Volvo, it doesn't matter what problem comes up if any.

Spiderman, Non-Italian Imposter of Italian Spiderman. > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 00:54

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Ill put my vote in for the German Ford over the Swedish Ford.
The Focus ST is something I've been digging for ages. They're a blast.

roflcopter > Milky 08/20/2013 at 00:56

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Price is definitely a big consideration on this, but spending a bit more for something that doesn't lead to worry is good.

The Volvo I picked up for my new DD has driven a total of 4.3 miles in my possession over the last 3 months, although I do all my own work and it's been on the back burner, and should be very reliable once I get done. But that's the trade-off I took when I decided I'd rather spend weeks under the car than paying $1k more for one in decent shape.

I guess not having to worry about a car is the theme of both the ST and my volvo, just in opposite ways. Gotta love a beater.

offroadkarter > dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter 08/20/2013 at 01:01

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Not to offend you or anyone else, but I loathe Vdubs, and the whole stanced, illest, hellaflush bullshit. If I was to ever put my ass in a Volkswagen it would be a VR6 corrado, and I don't rely on that as a daily driver.

I do like the WRX, and the Evo, my only issue (and this is the same issue a friend ran into looking at those) comes down to two issues really. Insurance cost, and finding a clean unmolested not beat to piss one for a good price.

I have considered BMW's and Audi's but I think the only problem there would be I'd look into things that are up there in maintenance and down on MPG. I would LOVE to have a e39 M5, a e38 7 series or an audi RS4, but I've never heard of the upkeep being cheap on those.

I actually considered pony cars for a DD, I thought about LS1 F bodies (Trans am WS6 to be specific) or SN95 cobras, but I don't really need to attract the attention to myself. I'd also like something that feels a bit newer to drive every day.

offroadkarter > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 08/20/2013 at 01:02

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thats impossible, we all know volvos are safe!

offroadkarter > Spiderman, Non-Italian Imposter of Italian Spiderman. 08/20/2013 at 01:04

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This is what I keep hearing, I really want to test drive one.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 01:05

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Yea but we all know shit happens.

offroadkarter > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 01:13

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Here is the exact car I test drove by the way. It was a 2004 S60R with nordkap interior and a 6spd manual. The angle gear had to be going bad (clunked a lot on any takeoff that was over a crawl), one of the rear brakes was messed up (constant scrape sound as it was rolling around) and the interior was chewed the hell up. Car had 92k miles on it IIRC. The specific car was a pile of shit and way over priced (I think it took them a good year to finally sell it) but the car as a model I really enjoyed

rad_mike > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 01:39

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No contest. Find the right R and you'll be stoked. Of course, I'm a bit biased. (Btw - you're spot on about the clutch, but still a blast once you master it).

BJohnson11 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 01:41

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First gen Cadillac CTS-V. Comfort, a little style, and V8, rwd, tire shredding capabilities. Solid LS engine that's a blank canvas for whatever you want to turn it into because of a vast aftermarket.

Or an E39 M5. But those are pricey and older, and likely less reliable.

offroadkarter > BJohnson11 08/20/2013 at 01:50

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One of my old coworkers has a 2007 CTS V, being that the CTS is a midsize my knees were literally in the dash in the passenger seat. Also the interior feels cheap as hell to me. I do like them, but I think if I was to buy one it'd be a second gen and those are NOT cheap!

I love E39 M5's, to me thats the best looking M5 ever made. But I'd rather have one for a fun car over a daily due to typical BMW things like cost of maintenance.

offroadkarter > rad_mike 08/20/2013 at 01:51

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Current R owner? Care to weigh in a bit about your ownership experience? I'm interested to hear.

BJohnson11 > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 01:56

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I mean, I've never sat in a CTS-V, but I'd have to guess that it has more room than a Focus ST...Plus, you'll be in the drivers seat, so who cares about the passenger seat? But cheap interior is a valid concern, as are the concerns over daily driving a 10+ year old BMW.

Pontiac G8 GXP? I've always lusted after one. Pretty pricey though.

Mazda Speed 3 maybe?

offroadkarter > BJohnson11 08/20/2013 at 02:00

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I'm not sure how I forgot about the GXP, I'm a big fan of the GTO and G8's. Maybe I'll have to see where they are on the price scale vs miles next year. I wonder what those get for mileage tho

shpuker > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 02:25

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Subaru Impreza WRX Hatch. 250hp, AWD, 25mpg highway, 5 door hatch is quite practical space wise, 0-60 in 5.1 (I'd say more like 5.4) seconds. Limited/premium interior is pretty nice, seats are freakin fantastic. Not as nice inside as the S60 or the ST though. Plus! a fully loaded one barely breaches that 30k mark.... K so it's not cheap new but used ones can typically be had pretty easily too.

offroadkarter > shpuker 08/20/2013 at 02:30

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You mean a new one? I think the third gen impreza's look like kia's. I like the first gens, I like the second gens, but I was never a big fan of the third gen.

My problem with most Japanese automakers right now is, a lot of the 90's and mid 00's cars coming out of japan were good looking with some on the rather sporty side, but now it seems like they only want to offer bland or flat out ugly. The current impreza falls under the bland for me.

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 02:34

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I meant like certified through a dealer. If you would like, I could do some looking for you. Where are you located? I'll search online.

offroadkarter > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 02:43

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currently I reside in the state made infamous by MTV - better known as new jersey

shpuker > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 03:02

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That gen. I think they look great personally.

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 03:03

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What is a near major city?

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 03:05

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Also, any specific price?

offroadkarter > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 03:23

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for a used ST? i have no idea what a used one even goes for to be honest.

offroadkarter > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 03:24

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I'm not far from trenton

offroadkarter > shpuker 08/20/2013 at 03:25

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looks better in STi trim but this would be more my style

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 03:53

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The cheapest I can find is about 23, or 25 from a private owner

Dsscats > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 04:00

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You can also get a G8 V8 for under $20,000, but with around 60k miles. I also found a Mazdaspeed 3 with 15,000 miles for $18,000 with a couple mods.

offroadkarter > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 04:16

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not to big on the MS3, thats also another car that most used ones are ragged to shit by kids.

This I could get behind... Its like my car, except it actually moves out of its own way in stock trim, has a lot of options, and has a manual option!

a cat named scruffy- live from Caldor > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 04:36

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You have to drive the Focus ST before you narrow down your choices to two, you might hate it.

The last time I bought a car I hated driving the car I thought I wanted so it was back to the drawing board for me.

offroadkarter > a cat named scruffy- live from Caldor 08/20/2013 at 05:21

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this is a valid point, I've only driven a regular focus and while I thought that was a nice car to drive, the ST is a bit of a different animal. Its on my list to drive though, trust me.

Alex87f > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 06:56

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I'd say get a Focus ST.

The S60R is great, but AFAIK the US have a rather small dealer network, which nearly never dealt with S60R's, even less so with 6MT ones.
So you're looking at a niche car, by a niche manufacturer, which was recently taken over ( i.e. what about spare parts of older models?). Add the high quantity of specific and expensive parts of the R's, the fact that it's a performance car, and the presumably small sporty-Volvo-owning community in US of A, and you will end-up with one word to describe yourself: alone.

I wouldn't take all those chances for a daily driver.

I don't think the USA got the 2nd gen Focus ST with Volvo's 5cyl like we had here in Europe, otherwise I would have suggested a recent used one.

So I'd say go with the latest Focus ST. New, warrantied, I foresee good part availability in the future and a large community, it gets good fuel economy and it's supposed to be reliable. Plus it's fun AND fast. And there will probably be lots of ways to make it faster.

Dunnik > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 09:16

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Between the two, I'd say go for the Focus.

I simply don't trust Volvo anymore.

Alternative: Golf GTI: pricey, but fits your parameters. If too pricey (which it is, at close to $40k) then the Highline version for around $25 may be enough for you. That newish 2.5L engine is stupendously powerful for such a small car. For one who was used to the old 1.8, it's a seriously good improvement.

Joyrider > Dsscats 08/20/2013 at 09:24

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Coincidentally I am cross shopping the same cars. My dad had and S60r new in 2004 and to be honest its a classy Evo essentially. Its has everything the evo doesnt plus the stuff it does to a certain degree. But the haldex driveline needs a lot of maintenance from my research. My thoughts leads me toward a used ST like this.

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/…

shpuker > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 10:49

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This is true. I would do horrible things to have a 22b in the states

a cat named scruffy- live from Caldor > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 12:56

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When I was car shopping last year I didn't like the Civic Si that much but the regular Civic surprised me by being much more easy to live with, the Si was way too harsh for the crappy roads around here.

I drove the Si first and never thought the Si would be that much different but it was.

offroadkarter > Dunnik 08/20/2013 at 16:04

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A new GTI can reach up to 40 grand? really? holy crap!

offroadkarter > Alex87f 08/20/2013 at 16:06

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Yeah we didn't get the older ST or any RS models here like europe got. This is what our last gen ST looked like, essentially a body kit on a regular ZX4

dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 16:43

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No offense taken. My family had just always owned Volkswagens. Golf mk I, beetle, Porsche 914. But the little turbo fours are great motors. 30+ mpg and torquey.
Honestly I haven't kept up with what people have been doing to them. I'm not much of a stance guy either so I can understand the aversion.

rad_mike > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 16:58

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Yeah sure. I have an 07 manual (TiGray, nordkap) that I bought new. Bottom line is I love this car and will probably drive for another 5-10 years, if not more. The car gets used as a daily driver (city setting) and as a track toy once or twice a year. I've done a good bit of modification to it to make it more at home on the track including (major things): Stage 2 tune, TME springs, IPD trac-spec sways, full TME exhaust (which isn't wanting to pass smog in CA btw), front-mount intercooler. two-piece Gyrodic rotors all around, and 18" OZ Superturismo LMs (pegs were just too heavy and I got tired of them, for now).

Daily driving review (freeway): Car was built for the Autobahn really, but not necessarily the city. I can't tell you how great this car is to drive on the freeway. Torque all over the place. It's incredibly stable at higher speeds and gets about 23-25 mpg in the process.

Daily driving review (city): The suspension, especially as I have it set up, hates the city streets (i.e. potholes). That said, I make do just fine with a bit of dodging. City mileage is like 18-20 mpg. Turning radius (due to the massive brakes) rivals a battleship, but you get used to that too. The clutch is cumbersome in the city, especially given the "on/off" feel that you've already picked up on, but you get used to it (but I still prefer it over a slushbox).

Track/twisty review: As I have it set up, this car shocks just about everyone. Plenty of power, tidy suspension, and fantastic brakes. Set the chassis setting to advanced, reduce/turn off traction control (mainly to avoid roasting your brakes) and its just a great package. Main drawback is the weight. She's heavy and there's no getting around that. See above where I mention it's really built for the Autobahn, and not the dragstrip - though quite capable on a road course.

Interior - So damn cushy and comfortable. Refined touch points. Typical minimal Scandinavian design. Back seat is a bit tight. Truck is huge.

Overall, like any other euro car, as long as your willing to take care of it and can afford the maintenance items that do pop up (read: clutch slave cylinder, spline sleeve to the AWD [note the angle gear isn't really the problem that everyone always says it is...its the spline sleeve and even that might be overblown], and shock replacement whenever they go) then this is the car for you. If you can do your own work, or even want to try, then you're ahead of the game. Let me know if you have any specific questions...I've spent way too much time on Swedespeed over the years.

Good luck.

offroadkarter > dsigned001 - O.R.C. hunter 08/20/2013 at 17:25

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One of my friends traded in his 05 Pt cruiser GT for a 2010 jetta with the 2.5. I did get to drive it and it drove fine, the inline 5 sounded rather nice to.

If I was going to step into a VW though, it'd probably be an audi!

offroadkarter > rad_mike 08/20/2013 at 17:29

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Thanks for the write up, much appreciated

I have spent a lot of time reading swedespeed so I know all about the 4C shocks going bad and the spline shaft stripping over time. It seems like the cars biggest downfall, like most other cars, is it gets expensive to fix if you don't maintain it in the first place.

rad_mike > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 17:53

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Right on. Not sure how long you've been on there, but the discussions used to be A LOT more technical and informative. Things have gotten less useful, so find some of the older threats (some are in the sticky) and there's just a ton of great info. As best I can tell, that spline sleeve really gets hurt when the angle gear case loosens and water gets in. This seems to really effect the guys in the northeast the hardest given the snow/salt. Once water gets in, the sleeve teeth weaken, and go. Cheers.

offroadkarter > rad_mike 08/20/2013 at 18:09

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I haven't actually registered but I've trolled around for the past year or so.

Dunnik > offroadkarter 08/20/2013 at 20:42

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Those are Canadian prices, admittedly - would be slightly lower in the US. But a Wolfsburg GTI with manual is $38,725 with taxes, freight and PDI.

http://contents.vw.ca/vw4/configurat…

Sweet car, but were I in the market for a hot hatch, the nearly forty grand price would make me think of buying something else, like a well-cared for E46 M3 or something.

TheRidge > offroadkarter 08/21/2013 at 02:33

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One of my best buds has a very well sorted '04 S60R. Packed with IPD parts among others. He did have to replaced the angle gear but its my understanding that the 06-07 cars had an improved part. Plus Swedespeed forum has a DIY for the gear. I am actually searching for a manual V70R but they are extremely rare. You have to search the entire country! The exhaust note is pretty sweet with the 5cyl and the aftermarket support isn't horrible. To be honest though the comparison of a car that will be maybe 15k and one that is in the upper 20's (if you want the good seats) is a little apples and oranges. Sure one is under warranty but you are looking at a huge payment difference.

offroadkarter > TheRidge 08/21/2013 at 03:58

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I actually saw a V70R with a 6M trans at a cars and coffee event in PA.

I'm not really worried about aftermarket support, My car really doesn't have a huge aftermarket support either, so I'm used to paying out the ass for something as simple as a set of headers. I'm not looking at either a S60R or a ST for a 1/4 mile track monster, either one would just get some simple boltons and a tune and call it good.

I know it is apples to oranges, but thats just how my mind works lol

Inflame333 > offroadkarter 03/10/2014 at 14:15

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Got an S60R in on a trade, WORST CAR EVER! STAY AWAY!! I tried to sell it but NO ONE WANTED IT!! It was a 6 speed, the fucking awd broke, the fucking suspension broke, everything just kept fucking breaking. YOU WILL REGRET BUYING THIS CAR!

Nothing > offroadkarter 03/10/2014 at 14:40

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No contest for me, it'd be the Volvo R (although my preference is V70R). A performance version of a near-luxury car versus a gussied up economy car, albeit a nice car. I just think that the Volvo would be more comfortable and more solid over the long term. Try and get an 06+, though. I thought that something regarding the AWD was changed on 06+. Not positive though. Just hit up the IPD catalog and call it good.

Of course, while very different in execution, how much different is a big comfy sedan from a big comfy sedan?

offroadkarter > Inflame333 03/10/2014 at 15:01

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Thats the thing, when people don't maintain them they go to crap. Thats the same with any luxury car though, I can show you a million shitty BMW's. The car I drove had a clunk in the angle gear and one of the rear rotors was making a grind noise at low speed.

Previous service is key to any used car.

Inflame333 > offroadkarter 03/10/2014 at 15:19

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Read up on them a little more, some people couldn't even get 5k miles out of the angle gear collar. The car just sucks. I beat the crap out of my E46 M3 and nothing broke. There's a difference between engineering to get by and going above and beyond.

"Anyone can build a bridge that can stand. It takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands."

offroadkarter > Inflame333 03/10/2014 at 15:21

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I've been following them for almost 2 years now. One company is developing a stronger collar for the angle gear, I think the one for the M66 equipped cars is already out.

Doing 5k clutch drops over and over will certainly wear it out, I've read not to beat the piss out of it in first gear.

Inflame333 > offroadkarter 03/10/2014 at 15:27

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Last I checked, I enjoy beating the piss out of my car in any gear. Being held back because of a design flaw is a huge let down.